Black Ops: American pilots flying Russian aircraft during the Cold War

In the late 1960’s a secret program was undertaken by the US Air Force and Navy to evaluate flight characteristics of soviet built aircraft. The US acquired aircraft, radar systems, missiles as well as other hardware from friendly nations (Israel,Egypt,etc.) or aircraft used by their pilots to defect. The program continued until the early 1990’s, when the fall of the Soviet Union led to the end of the Cold War.

Knowing the potential of enemy aircraft when involved in a conflict is a major asset as it was proven time and again during WWII. Both sides lost the advantage when pilots became disoriented and landed at enemy airfields or when they simply defected. On June 23, 1942, Oberleutnant Arnim Faber mistakenly landed his Focke-Wulf 190A-3 at RAF Pembrey, near Swansea in Wales. The aircraft was delivered on July 13 to the Air Fighting Development Unit at Duxford, where it was flown in trials against the new Spitfire Mk.IX, giving the RAF concrete ideas on the best way to fight the Fw 190A with their new fighter, which redressed the balance of power. During WWII both the Allies and the Axis received such “presents” from defecting pilots, crashed aircraft, captured aircraft and so on.

After WWII, a new war was to begin, a war of ideology, the Cold War. Marked by decades of conflict, the Cold War was a time of tension and competition between the United States and the Soviet Union and their respective allies. Throughout this period several crisis threatened to escalate into an all out war. Both sides were engaged in a massive arms race, trying to develop technology that would tilt the balance in their favor.

With the start of the Korean War on June 25 1950 two formidable opponents were to meet in the skies of North Korea in an area that was given the name “MiG Alley”: the F-86 Sabre and the MiG-15 Fagot.US pilots found out that the MiG-15 climbed and dived faster, and was every bit as maneuverable. They needed a combat ready MiG-15 to evaluate performance against the F-86 Sabre in a controlled environment to give an edge to American pilots in dogfights.Operation Moolah was launched, the Korean War effort to entice a Communist pilot to fly a MiG-15 fighter to an allied airfield for a reward of $100,000. The result? In 1953 North Korean lieutenant No Kum-Sok defected to South Korea. He flew his MiG-15 to the Kimpo airbase, received 100,000 $ and later became an US citizen. This was the first MiG-15 Fagot received by the US. Chuck Yeager flight tested this aircraft and started a trend that was to last almost 40 years.

Lieutenant No Kum-Sok defected on September 21 1953 and his MiG became the first of many owned by the US. Western countries had a look at the MiG-15 earlier that year. On March 5 1953 Polish Lt. Franciszek Jarecki flew from Slupsk (Polish Air Force Base) to Ronne Airport on Bornholm Island in a MiG-15bis. Western air specialists checked the aircraft and several days later, the MiG returned to People’s Republic of Poland by ship. Jarecki, however, went to the United States, where he provided much important information about modern Soviet aircraft and air tactics. On May 20, 1953 Lt. Zdzislaw Jazwinski from 28th Fighter Squadron in Slupsk ( same squadron as Lt. Franciszek Jarecki) defected with MiG-15bis to Ronne Airport on Bornholm Island. On Novmeber 7 1955 Lt. Kozuchowski from 31st Fighter Squadron in Lask defected with his MiG-15 and crash-landed near Halland in Sweden and on September 25, 1956 Lt. Zygmunt Gosciniak from Zegrze Pomorskie defected with MiG-15bis and landed without using landing gear at Ronne Airport on Bornholm Island. By this time however the MiG-15 was considered an absolete design, having been replaced by the superior MiG-17.

During the Vietnam War North Korean MiG-17s and MiG-21s reached a kill rate of 9:1 against US air assets. In the early 60’s the US had its biggest break. In 1961, a disappointed Soviet pilot flew his Sukhoi Su-9 interceptor to Abadan, Iran. Only very sketchy details about this incident are known even today, but the plane and the pilot were picked up by officers of the Foreign Technology Division (FTD) of the DoD. After being disassembled within 24 hours the Su-9 was transported to the USA, while the pilot followed shortly after. In 1966, Iraqi Captain Munir Redfa flew his MiG-21F-13 to Israel. Two years later, Israel gave his MiG-21F-13 and two MiG-17F to the United States for evaluation.

In January 1968 project HAVE DOUGHNUT, a joint USAF/Navy technical and tactical evaluation of the MiG-21F-13 began at a top secret facility in Nevada known as Groom Lake, also known as Area-51. In February 1968 the first test flight of HAVE DOUGHNUT MiG-21F-13 occurred and by March same year the project was completed. In January 1969project HAVE DRILL/HAVE FERRY evaluation of two MiG-17F airplanes (seen in the picture) began at Area 51 with delivery of first airplane. In February the first MiG-17 test flight was completed and in March the second MiG-17 was delivered to the now famous Area-51.In May 1969 project HAVE DRILL/HAVE FERRY was completed. In addition to tracking the dog fights staged between the various MiG models against virtually every fighter in US service, and against SAC’s B-52 Stratofortress and B-58 Hustlers to judge the ability of the bombers countermeasures systems, they performed radar cross-section and propulsion tests that contributed greatly to improvements in US aerial performance in Vietnam.

What was learned during these projects at Area 51 prompted the US Navy to commence Top Gun exercises first at Miramar, California and then Fallon, Nevada. Shortly thereafter the US Air Force commenced its Red Flag exercises at Nellis AFB, Nevada. The programs continued. In May 1973 a new project was initiated. Project HAVE IDEA was initiated to evaluate foreign aircraft at Area 51 and elsewhere. The test aircraft initially included MiG-21 and MiG-17 variants. Project HAVE IDEA was initiated to take over from HAVE DOUGHNUT and HAVE DRILL/HAVE FERRY projects.

As a result of the HAVE IDEA project in July 1973 the 4477th TEF known as “Red Eagles” was activated at Nellis Air Force Base to support evaluation of foreign aircraft. In December 1977 6513th Test Squadron “Red Hats” was activated at Edwards Air Force Base, also to support in the evaluation of foreign aircraft. As of May 1980 the 4477th TEF “Red Eagles” was upgraded to squadron status as the 4477th Test and Evaluation Squadron. Following this upgrade, the program was again renamed and it continued as CONSTANT PEG with realistic combat training operations featuring adversary tactics, dissimilar air combat training, and electronic warfare.

Over the years more and more aircraft were added to the collection. On September 6, 1976, Lieutenant Viktor Belenko defected with his MiG-25 to Hakodate, Japan. The US interrogated and debriefed him for 5 months after his defection, and employed him as a consultant for several years thereafter. The MiG was disassembled, examined, and returned to the USSR in thirty crates. Belenko brought with him the pilot’s manual for the Foxbat, expecting to assist American pilots in evaluating and testing the aircraft. However, the Japanese government only allowed the US to examine the plane and do ground tests of the radar and engines. In July 1988, two Syrian pilots defected with their MiG-29s to Turkey followed by another Syrian pilot in April same year who landed his MiG-23ML in Turkey. In October 1989 Syrian pilot Abdel Bassem landed his MiG-23ML in Israel.

These aircraft were given US designations and fake serial numbers so that they may be identified in DoD standard flight logs. It is rumored that more than two dozen MiGs and Sukhois were used during these programs. Here is a list of some of the designations used for the aircraft.
YF-110B MiG-21F-13 “Fishbed-C”
YF-110C A MiG-21 “Fishbed” variant
YF-110D A MiG-21 “Fishbed” variant
YF-113A MiG-17F “Fresco-C” used in HAVE DRILL program
YF-113B MiG-23BN “Flogger-F”
YF-113C MiG-17F (actually a Chinese-built J-5) “Fresco-C” used in HAVE PRIVILEGE program
YF-113E MiG-23MS “Flogger-E”
YF-114C MiG-17F “Fresco-C” (the one used in the HAVE FERRY program)
YF-114D MiG-17PF “Fresco-D

The pilots of these squadrons were faced with flying aircraft they did not have knowledge of, lacked manuals and spare parts. Aircraft components were often reverse engineered by ground crews and manufactured on the spot. Here is an example of how things were done to keep the airplanes in the air: one day, the Constant Peg maintenance shop noticed it was running out of MiG-21 brakes. With no place to buy any off the shelf, they sent out some worn brakes for duplication. Six weeks and untold dollars later they got back a brand new set of worn-out brakes. The new parts had been made to look exactly like the old. In these conditions it is not surprising that accidents did occur, some of them fatal. In April 1984 Lt. Gen. Robert M. Bond made two orientation flights in a Russian-built MiG-23 jet fighter. While making a high-speed run during his second flight, Bond lost control and crashed in Area 25 of the Nevada Test Site. He was killed while ejecting.

Facing great dangers pilots from the 4477th Test and Evaluation Squadron “Red Eagles” and 6513th Test Squadron “Red Hats” provided extremely valuable information regarding flight characteristics of Warsaw Pact aircraft, information that was to prove useful for pilots engaged in combat in Lybia, Iraq, Angola and so on. Following the collapse of the Soviet Union and the end of the Cold War the 4477th Test and Evaluation Squadron “Red Eagles” was deactivated. In October 1992 the 6513th Test Squadron “Red Hats” was inactivated. It was reactivated immediately as the 413th Flight Test Squadron, providing test and evaluation capability for electronic warfare (EW) systems. In May 2004 the 413th Flight Test Squadron was inactivated as part of a consolidation and realignment of EW assets.

The only military unit in the US still flying Soviet/Russian built equipment is OPTEC in the Army, flying a small number of Mi-24 Hinds, Mi-8/17 Hips, An-2 Colts and one Mi-2 Hoplite and Ka-32 Helix each.

Declassified video of the USAF MiG-15 test and evaluation program

Declassified video of the HAVE DOUGHNUT MiG-21 evaluation flights

48 thoughts on “Black Ops: American pilots flying Russian aircraft during the Cold War”

  1. I think American technology today owes alot to foreign technology and science of the past. America scaveged foreign technology and know how to incorporate into their own. Russia was the first nation to send a man to space, but sadly his name is little know because of American propaganda and demonisation of Communism. It wasnt even Americans who sent people to the moon, it was in fact German rocket scientists taken back to the USA after WW2.

    American claims of superior technology are false, they took what they learned from other nations and other people to improve what they had. America gave no recognition to people like Von Braun and other non Americans whos knowledge and technology they took

  2. To DGNR – If, as you say, it was just a simple matter or copying and stealing, why didn’t YOUR country do it too? Funny, you post this nonsense using a computer, software and information network all invented by…. drum roll please…. AMERICANS!

  3. Hello, I would like to request permission to reprint extracts from your article on captured Russian aircraft in a general article on air technical intelligence.
    Harold Skaarup

  4. Well…..Many aircraft to this day are better then american aircraft, its just the american people who say such things. The only thing american aircraft have are useless stealth..thats it. a Gripen would own american aircraft

  5. Superior American technology, which began in the steam age, was/is the product of inherent ‘Yankee Ingenuity’ AND the thousands of Welsh, British, Scots, Irish, Norwegian, Swedish, Danish, Dutch, Norwegian, French, Belgian, German etc. immigrants who added to the status quo of the American technological base.

    some of the most valuable were German Jews, Jews and other assorted ‘undesirables’ the Germans forced out…

    American technology is merely a synthesis of many people from all over the world who sought the promised land, freedom and a better life…

    The trend continues today, even…

  6. To Uncle Sam:

    Konrad Zuse (pronounced [ˈkɔnʁat ˈtsuːzə]; June 22, 1910 Berlin – December 18, 1995 Hünfeld) was a German engineer and computer pioneer. His greatest achievement was the world’s first functional program-controlled Turing-complete computer, the Z3, in 1941 (

    Ooops, seems you´ve gotten something wrong there, hahahaha!!!

  7. Russian aircraft are superior to any others and the US won’t admit it. They like to claim that they are superior by battling nations whose pilots are badly trained and their aircraft badly maintained, e.g. Iraq, Libya, Yugoslavia, North Korea. They say in the Korean War they claimed 10:1 air supremacy over the Russians. On the other hand, the Russians claim that they won 4:1 air supremacy (although according to one source I read, it was more like 2:1). The latter is more likely, going on Vietnam War statistics (the MiG-17 used by the North Vietnamese used the same gun as the MiG-15).
    Don’t believe Western claims. They wouldn’t admit the inferiority of their aircraft in the past. And at the moment, the US has the F-22 Raptor and the F-35 Lightning II, but wait until Russia flies the Sukhio T-50 PAK FA.

  8. Russia has copied everything; MIG 15, 23, SU35 (F86, F4 phantom, F15) Nuclear weapons, Nuclear subs, the space shuttle, Skylab, FOAB/MOAB, aircraft carrier (all inferior). German technology is the only reason for Soviets making it to space barely beating the Americans by mere weeks. The SU35 that the Russians are in awe over is nothing but an F15 copy cat (70’s technology) The F22/35 is of 80’s/early 90’s tech. The only reason we dont use 2010 technology available to kick Russian ass, is because we have no real competitor to spend the money to produce what we are already do with decades ahead 80’s/90’s tech. Also DGNR/Jim (idiots) Americans are; Russians, Germans, British, Irish, Italian, Norweigan, & countless others. Anyone can become an American to live the dream, it is a belief, not of place. I think you both need a job! You really want a taste of what we are capable of? Read about antigravity machines, working on since the 40’s. Russia does better picking on a small military like Georgia, Czech. Finland (near their borders) Oh yeah the ski’s used against the Germans, were taught by the Finish, another bully fight that they were getting asses kicked on. Copy cat?

  9. DGNR: Von Braun is by the way a highly looked up to individual, & another typical story of what America is about. He was a German yes, but he became an American. The Soviets used Germans as slaves, to put them into space, & gave them absolutely no credit. Also the honorable Russian ally (who were also spying on our atomic weapons) when over running German positions took Americans captured by Germans to prisons inside of Russia, learning American flight tactics. Stealing, & copying is Russian way.

  10. DGNR,

    I can agree with some of what you are saying, but lets not forget that the Soviets did the same to us.

    The TU-4 is an almost EXACT copy of a B-29. Also their espoinage around the Manhattan project hastened their aquisition of the bomb by 1-2 years.

  11. Better or not better, it’s not even used to defend the U.S. It is used to defend Israel, as are the lives of the US soldiers.

  12. Hello to all. I am a fighter pilot od IRIAF.I have flaw by US and russia fighter several times, for example:F4 phantom,F5 tiger,MiG 29 fulcrum,Su 27 flanker. In my opinion the russian fighters are superior than us ones. I say this beacause of my experience not for any other reasons. Specially MiG 29 is one best fighter in world beacause of it’s very excellent manueveribility. But importance of pilot and training procedure is a critical issue. In my opinoin a bad pilot with best fighter can’t do anything against a sharp pilot with a medium fighter that has minimum equipments of new wars.

  13. MRR maybe is senial, you do not understand the missions, or tactics for US vs Russian fighters? I am engineer/technician, maybe it is good that your retired, or fired, maybe you were not very good @ what you did:( I do not accept your opinion of modern fighter designs. Try to compare apples to apples, not to grapes.

  14. Nice Presentation: i write aviation-aerospace history for QUEST, AAHS, and for AIR~ENTHUSIAST. a natural law is-people are always psychologically oriented to test other people’s technology-its in our DNA, like duh…hullo. Soviet craft were parallel to the West’s aeronautical prowess, and each has its fine points and negative points. If its made by man, it will either look nice or ugly, perform well or not, etc, yaddi, yaddi, ya ya, so grow up children, its a frasgment of life on earth!

    Our space prowess is recorded in stone; German rocket technology was far aheasd of Goddard’s work in the U.S., like 12-20 years. Much of its technolotgy is still not recorded in the public domain as I have found out over the years. Confirm for yourself by perusing post WW II magazines. Only a portion of German Tech was reported in public domain. They crasted combo-powerplants, advanced ramjets, an easrth orbiting spaceplane, clustered liquid-fuel boosters as in A-10 to boost a piloted winged (straked wing from nose to tail), glide-rocket, and space flight plans. They developed guidance systems, several computer types, numerous rocket fuels both solid and liquid, a centrafuge to test both animals, and man and other advanced optics, infrared, synthetic foods applicable to space travel, synthetic petroleums, and much, much more. Sealth technbology was underway at a classified (U.S. forces classified it with no future release date on what was accumulated), research being made public domain other than the Ho-229 jet fly-wing. Dornberger/Ehricke went to Bell and created the winged, piloted spacecraft…Bomi. Bomber Missile, then Brass Bell, System 118P, Robo, and Dyna Soar gliders every bit as good as Boeing’s Model 844-2050E. Parallel to this were Russian space plane concepts being developed too. We merely race each other with new ideas and the best engineers, and pilots will prevail with their ability to think-reason using the right-left brain functions. To argue the point is useless energy expended. Nuff said. A copter pilot, A&P, and ex-defense contractor employee.

    Have fun and enjoy the data.

  15. Excuse the typos…I type faster than the brain works, and never did adapt well to a keyboard unless I type slow. Nevertheless the message should be obvious. The really big question is, would anybody advanced and from off-planet really leave behind their brethren and their srecked super-advanced semi or circular craft for us to rip into and attempt to duplicate? It is a really debatable point where aeronautics is concerned. Thanks and happy holidays.

  16. You know this is the first time, that I’ve ever been here to read any of these commentaries. How Interesting, First Off, my hats off to Mr. Dave Stern..bravo!!…Secondly, it’s awfully funny how all of these ungrateful Socialist wannabes who are masquerading as American Citizens or who are sitting in some foreign country using our freedoms that many a true American (I’m not talking about the Politically Correct, bleeding heart liberals who feel that the world owes them a living mind you, but the true Americans who went and answered the call to duty and fought and died for) sit and bitch about our Aircraft and Technology…I got news for you Idiot Assholes. The person who came out with a computer in a sense was German, that’s true, but who invented the PC, the desktop, Apple, Microsoft?, why were these things invented by Americans, because unlike most Socialist countries who are dominated by limitations, We as Americans can operate freely without restriction and not have to worry about some imcompentent Educated idiot feeling inferior because someone who didn’t or doesn’t have a degree thought of it before he or she did. (And granted, these are the very freedoms that these Socialist Politically Correct wannabes would like to take from us) But I’ll have you all know that I served in the United States military for 23 years (I proudly did it) and I did it without reservation as well. and FYI for some of you, a lot of the Russian Technology, they stole from us, ask people like the Rosenburgs and Klaus Fuchs, they should know, Oh not to mention lest we forget the Walker spy ring as well, we have the best equipment in the world, it is our God given right, because it’s in God that most of us who still have any sense and haven’t been blinded by the politically correct ploy still trust in. and even though we’re not the most perfect nation on the face of the earth, especially right now, but it’s our country and if you don’t like it…Get the Fuck out, if you want to be a bleeding heart Socialist Politically Correct Liberal I suggest you bleeding hearts masquerading as Americans bad mouthing our country,….move to Europe

  17. Crewchieff_16 – you are without a doubt one of the dumbest individuals ever to attempt to put pen to page. First off, this is NOT a discussion forum on politics so your idiotic comments on bleeding heart liberals etc are worthless and show how moronic you really are. But if you want to continue in the same vein let’s do this. Oh and by the way…this comment by you and I quote: “Get the Fuck out, if you want to be a bleeding heart Socialist Politically Correct Liberal I suggest you bleeding hearts masquerading as Americans bad mouthing our country,….move to Europe” – we don’t need or want you scumbag dumbass yank filth screwing up Europe. We get along just fine without you and BEFORE you go on about if it wasn’t for America helping Britain out in WW2 we’d be speaking German let me remind you that we held them off with the best Air Force in the world until Hitler decided to invade Russia thereby cancelling the invasion of England (Operation Sealion) for good. You guys only became involved when those naughty naughty Japanese (now a big big ally of the dumb old US of A) bombed Pearl Harbour, thereby forcing you into WW2. Secondly, all the Americans have ever done is take someone else’s idea and improve on it… case in point: the computer, Television, radar… shall I go on, dope? Now to politics. You sound somewhat more right wing than Adolf Hitler and if he was alive today you’d probably take every opportunity you could to kiss his ass. And in the statement I quoted you proved how dumb you really are. Political correctness is something that is espoused by REPUBLICANS you idiot. NOT bleeding heart liberals as you call them. Liberals are for FREEDOM whereas people into political correctness are into forcing other people into THEIR way of thinking because they think they are right and morally correct and have God on their side (let’s go killing abortion doctors in God’s name folks YEEEEHHHAAAAAWWWWWW!!)… thanks to those so called bleeding heart liberals, the war against Japan ended when it did because they fought and died so pricks like YOU could exist in a world where people are free to talk shite lie you.
    Oh and here is another quote that really seals the deal for you dumbass: “Oh not to mention lest we forget the Walker spy ring as well, we have the best equipment in the world, it is our God given right, because it’s in God that most of us who still have any sense and haven’t been blinded by the politically correct ploy still trust in” What kind of so called morally superior idiot do you think you are? God given right? God has quit on you Americans, he is sick of all the serial killers, rapes and murders in His name that people like you commit and that go on there in the States. Not to mention kidnapping (Oh let’s go to Haiti and try to kidnap some children… we’re doing it in God’s name so it’s OK!)He is sick of all the CIA sponsored overthrows of legally elected governments – if it wasn’t for YOU idiots, Cuba would never have had Castro! If you wanna talk about God given rights, lt’s talk about Israel shall we? Jesus was King of the … let’s hear you say it, Nazi boy… JEWS! That’s right, God’s son was king of the Jews… yet that didn’t stop Hitler from doing his best to exterminate them… no, God doesn’t want scum like you because people like you cause death and suffering and cause wars just to bolster your economies (Desert Storm anyone? Still ain’t found those naughty weapons of mass destruction yet!) So to close, shove you EWRAH bullshit of your morally and politically correct ass and do the world a favour and shoot yourself in the face. (Oh and by the way, and this has been proven: The British SAS are better soldiers than anything the US can come up with… even your SEALs don’t come close!)

  18. Jimo you moron…Quote “Russia has copied everything; MIG 15, 23, SU35 (F86, F4 phantom, F15)” WRONG, the F86 first flew in 1952 and the Mig 15 first flew in 1947… You clearly know nothing… so why don’t you quit your idiotic ew rah’ing and grow a pair, prove how tough yopu are and join the army!

  19. Regardless American pilots are the best train in the world by far. have some of the best maintained equipment. IF the russians attacked us europe would go first so you better not beat up on us yanks yet because one day the communist will beat on your door and who will get the call the USA you betcha. We may be down for a while but don’t count us out yet. Russia is now full of rusty undermaintained relics very few high tech weapons. Russians plane are maybe superior in past eras. Besides most they couldn’t keep them in the air for very long. We all know US and it allies would kick russia rears in air to air combat let not pretend that Vietnam has anything to do with today. let not relive past glories. The only one that are Battle harden are the Yanks. by the way uncle sams say Your welcome.

  20. JIMO… What does THAT stand for, Jesus I’m a Moron, Ollie!… sounds about right… as for the F86 and MiG 15, granted the F86 did fly first, but only just, both flew in 1947. As for this quote: “Russia has copied everything; MIG 15, 23, SU35 (F86, F4 phantom, F15)”, you truly are a moron… for a start the MiG 23 can’t even compare to the F4 Phantom… just in case you didn’t notice the MiG 23 was a swing wing aircraft and the F4 was definitely and obviously not (NOW who’s talking apples and grapes!)… and the F15 first flew in 1972 whereas the Su35 is a progression from the Su27 which is an infinitely superior aircraft to the F15. Maybe YOU should read before you spout. Oh and mama… if ya don’t like what you read, don’t read it… that is why us Brits laugh at you yanks cos you claim we are cold fish but it is in the states that you have to have warnings about a TV program having nudity, coarse language, violence etc etc cos you are all too thick to change the channel if you don”t like what you see. Plus you are all such greedy sods that one of the main reasons the TV stations put this warning up in the first place is so that some half baked retard doesn’t try to sue them for millions of bucks cos their so called sensibilities were offended by the show they watched… yet the US is one of the easiest places to go out and pick up a gun! No wonder you fools are busy blowing eachother away, most of you can’t even distinguish fact from fiction! And finally, charles, maybe you should learn the English language before putting finger to keyboard… as well as maybe checking out your history lessons: “IF the russians attacked us europe would go first so you better not beat up on us yanks yet because one day the communist will beat on your door and who will get the call the USA you betcha.” If the Russians attacked you, you’d have about two or three minutes before you got nuked, fool. If they attacked conventionally, I would be kinda surprised if it was communists… communism (or what YOU call communism you should look at a dictionary and you’ll see that Russia was never a communist state it was a dictatorship) collapsed a while back… remember? And why does uncle sam say You’re welcome?? Welcome for what? For screwing up and sending American soldiers (as well as getting other nations involved) to Iraq for a lying shiteating twat like George W? So where were the weapons of mass destruction? OH of course it was because the US wanted to get a cheaper oil supply from a corrupt puppet government which even now is falling apart at the seams! And what about Afghanistan? Remember those naughty Taliban? Well guess what guys, it was the good old US of A that armed the Taliban against the Soviet invasion… and now the Taliban is the enemy. So the Taliban are now killing American soldiers with weapons given to them for free by Americans. Anyone else see anything wrong with this picture? And you want to report me mama? Please, go ahead.

  21. double jack off: oil in iraq? 2008 the us did not win one oil contract, but who did? Afghanistan; we are loosing with only 2k lost in almost 10 years vs 20k or more soviets in 8 years. The news media is what does the most for you, & like you ignorance. I wont get into the MIG vs US plane debate due to your ignorance again is exposed, do some more researce before you jackoff on keyboard.

  22. Russian, American…all made in Taiwan or China.
    Who gives a rat’s arse who nicked what from who. Tell someone who cares!
    What I see is, the hundreds of billions of dollars in tax, that’s been squandered making machines to irrigate the earth with the blood of innocent men, women and children.

  23. Russian, American…all made in Taiwan or China.
    Who gives a rat’s pertootee who nicked what from who. Tell someone who cares!
    What I see is, the hundreds of billions of dollars in tax, that’s been squandered making machines to irrigate the earth with the blood of innocent men, women and children.

  24. Ok guy, heres the deal: They spy on us, we spy on them. If one of us get a great development in tech, the other trys to get it too or beter. THAT’s SPYING.. it’s not a morel issue, it’s a diplimatic one. lol

  25. For those of you who claim that Soviet aicraft are superior…. the EVIDENCE (air-to-air combat record) is strongly against you. Even when the Soviets sent their best pilots to fight against US craft in past wars, the odds were still in the American’s favor.

    In Korea, the technology was pretty close, and might even be a tossup. However, by the time Vietnam hit, the American technology was vastly superior, largely due to solid state electronics. The Soviets wouldn’t implement solid state in their military equipment for another 20 years.

    MODERN American fighter aircraft have a near perfect record in aerial combat against Soviet craft. Doesn’t really seem to matter all that much who is flying them either.

    Soviets are still stuck on the dogfighting role of fighter aircraft, and they do build some highly maneuverable and fast aircraft. It’s impressive stuff, but the avionics, radars and weapons systems on US aircraft are now advanced to the point where they make dogfighting largely obsolete. In Vietnam, these technologies were in their infancy. Now, They have reached their apex. Between stealth and high grade weapons systems, a single American fighter can take out an entire squadron of Soviet aircraft LONG before the Soviets even know there’s a threat in the air.

    Some dumb ass-clown made a lame argument here that the air-to-air record was exaggerated by Americans and that American losses were much greater than reported. This is so stupid, I can’t believe I’m even debating it here, but here goes…

    The KEY difference between a totalitarian Socialist state and the United States is that WE HAVE FREEDOM. We know how many Americans died in each engagement because the soldiers and airmen are free to TALK about it afterwards. NOBODY is ordered into silence about these things. Even if they were, someone would eventually talk. In the Soviet model state, ALMOST EVERYTHING is covered up, and rewritten for public consumption. The US sends press correspondents out with our troops, while the Soviets sent political officers.

    QUICK LESSON ABOUT AMERICAN VS. SOVIET TECHNOLOGY: Almost EVERY piece of equipment ever revealed by the Soviets was backed by false claims of high technology and capability. Likewise almost EVERY piece of equipment ever revealed by the AMERICANS was greatly DOWNPLAYED. We often waited a decade or more before revealing actual capabilities.

    When the US captured Soviet aircraft, they were ASTONISHED… not because there was something high tech, but because it was all so LOW tech. There were freaking VACCUUM TUBES in those MiGs!

    Why do you think the Soviet plan was to outnumber our fighters by a ratio of 8 to 1? It’s because they figured they’d NEED at LEAST that many to stand a chance! At about the point where they had nearly reached that number, it was discovered that advances in US radar and weapons systems made it likely that they would need a 12 to 1 ratio. Hint… this is why the Soviet Union went BANKRUPT! They couldn’t maintain the numbers they’d need!

  26. Si USA haubiera tenido superioridad aerea garacias a sus mejores aviones, sencillamnete habria ganado la guerra, Pero no, perdio!!!! en Corea y en Vietnam el resto es puro Hollywood.

  27. I have a question for any covert operations experts who are familiar with SAD/SOG aviation units.
    Have any Soviet MIG-21s/29s or SU-27s/31s/etc ever been flown by US pilots in combat operations in order to fool enemy radar in denied territory?
    I only ask because I’ve heard of incidents where we *may* have used MIG-21s during covert operations in the not too distant past (possibly even Libya or Syria recent?) to avoid attracting attention and to deceive the ground forces before the ordinance fell on their positions.
    If anyone has an answer, I’d be thankful. My email is [email protected] and I’m aware of OPSEC so this is just me being curious. It seems plausible, and downright sensible, but I just have to know if we’ve ever tried doing it or, even better, succeeded at doing so.

    Please feel free to email me anytime with the answer if you know that this has ever occurred. Again, I’m familiar with my own NDAs I’ve signed and am very particular about OPSEC/PERSEC. I just wish to know if this was ever used in the past. Thanks again!

  28. Rather than spout about who makes better stuff, I will say I live in Hawaii and that there is an extreme military presence here. The F-22 arrived about a yr. ago. Before that there were F-15’s.

    The new generation Migs, and Sukuoi’s better have it on the ball if they ever encounter a Raptor in a real world situation.

    The killing factor is this however, there are only 178 Raptors world wide, they are either that advanced, or are too costly to make more and that is a distinct disadvantage.

    \ A well armed sapper with a satchel charge could do more damage than a squadron of Migs in theh right setting. That is worrying that we would consider ourselves superior with 178 aircraft against thousands of other equally advanced aircraft. Either we are lying to ourselves, or you are lying about how fantastic Russsian aircraft really are. It cannot be both.

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